tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11758224.post8600878456286052066..comments2023-09-28T07:23:51.376-07:00Comments on ProjectPerko: ChallengeCraig Perkohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13173752470581218239noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11758224.post-15139036860678635932007-03-01T17:12:00.000-08:002007-03-01T17:12:00.000-08:00It's a great point. It's clear in my head, but obv...It's a great point. It's clear in my head, but obviously not on the screen. I need to be clearer, so I'll post on it soon.Craig Perkohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13173752470581218239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11758224.post-59957800402613685612007-03-01T12:06:00.000-08:002007-03-01T12:06:00.000-08:00Craig, I think you may need to contextualize your ...Craig, I think you may need to contextualize your definition of "opprtunity" here. I'm looking through your archives but not finding a satisfactory answer. In the absence of same, I am using a definition of "opportunity" meaning "any in-game element through which the player may address a challenge." But in using that I can't help but come to the following assertion:<BR/><BR/>[begin actual post]<BR/>In your fervor to make your point, Craig, you made a single misstep on which I'm calling you out.<BR/><BR/>You said that a good game gives new opportunities and challenges to a player who has mastered existing ones at a certain stage of play.<BR/><BR/>This is not correct, not even for good games as a subset of all games.<BR/><BR/>You can argue that a good game gives new challenges iff you define new challenges as including restatements or increased levels of existing challenges. However, great games do not _need_ to provide the player with new opportunities to address these challenges. In many iterations of great gameplay, the only additions to opportunity for success are provided by the player himself.<BR/><BR/>In fact, sometimes challenge is created at the direct expense of opportunity. Plenty of puzzle games give you "the black piece that can't be moved" in later levels, for example. Super Pac-Man progressively reduced the local relevance of the keys the player picked up by moving the relevant unlockable walls farther away from said key. And even in Half Life, there's a point in the story where all your guns are taken away.<BR/>[end actual post]<BR/><BR/>So do you want to clarify what you mean so I can disabuse myself of this?Bradley Mombergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00758814428807837278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11758224.post-1399908319083950452007-02-27T21:25:00.000-08:002007-02-27T21:25:00.000-08:00My brain is turning to mush due to lack of sleep, ...My brain is turning to mush due to lack of sleep, but I should say that arguing that a good game should simply have unlimited opportunities doesn't work: there is a need for opportunities to be challenges, or there's no punch to them.<BR/><BR/>I can make that more coherent tomorrow if I need to, but it seems self-evident...Craig Perkohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13173752470581218239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11758224.post-85885035111653682702007-02-27T20:55:00.000-08:002007-02-27T20:55:00.000-08:00Because the challenge is an integral part of contr...Because the challenge is an integral part of controlling the speed at which a player completes all the opportunities offered him!<BR/><BR/>I can say - with certainty, because I've tried many similar situations - that I would <I>not</I> have played Katamari nearly as obsessively if I weren't racing a clock. Sort of like playing Oblivion with all the cheats: yeah, it's REALLY FUN. For about two hours.Craig Perkohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13173752470581218239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11758224.post-50958555966597711792007-02-27T11:05:00.000-08:002007-02-27T11:05:00.000-08:00I see what you're saying, and I see that I need to...I see what you're saying, and I see that I need to refine my argument. <BR/><BR/>The HL2 example revolved around this fact: they figured out that something was fun, and gave people more of it instead of using it as a carrot.<BR/><BR/>Obviously there's a smart way to do this and a dumb way. The BFG in Doom is cool, but only because it takes a long time to get it and you feel very powerful--temporarily. If you were given the BFG at the beginning of the game, the game would just be boring because it's not designed to stand up to that kind of power for very long.<BR/><BR/>As for eternal mode: it's the most fun part about the whole damn game (at least to me). Why make me wait for it?Darius Kazemihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01646249933207430061noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11758224.post-53066569537127060212007-02-27T09:22:00.000-08:002007-02-27T09:22:00.000-08:00Non-game masterpieces (such as films or paintings)...Non-game masterpieces (such as films or paintings) tend to give and give in that each time you watch it, you see something that you didn't notice before. This is a kind of layered opportunity that works very well, but is still <I>basically</I> part of this theory.Craig Perkohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13173752470581218239noreply@blogger.com